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Jennifer Barnwell, President of Curator Hotel and Resort Collection

• Jeff Borman and Matt Brown

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From the Jersey Shore to the Sunset Strip, the Garden of the Gods to Boston Common, the Eden Roc to the El Capitan, Curator Hotel and Resort Collection has been on an absolute tear, bringing some of the most unique and independent properties in the country together in a groundbreaking collective.

Jennifer Barnwell talks with us about Curator's ROI-first model and value proposition, the "brand or boutique dilemma" for hotel owners, keeping the indie vibe intact, and the human touch versus automation. Plus: robot massages, Parisian adventures, and the special sauce that goes into evaluating properties to join Curator.

Matt Brown:

Hi everybody, it's No Show with Matt Brown and Jeff Foreman. From the Jersey Shore to the Sunset Strip, the Garden of the Gods to Boston Common, the Eden Rock to the El Capitan, the Curator Hotel and Resort Collection has, since its founding a little over five years ago, been on an absolute tear, bringing some of the most unique and independent properties in the country together into a collective of sorts, offering, among other things, centralized services like procurement and marketing and technology to help local hotels keep up with the Joneses. Pebble Brook Hotel Trust is the majority owner of the Curator Collection itself, but the member hotels remain independently owned and operated. Our guest, Jennifer Barnwell, is president of Curator. Previously, she was senior VP of Asset Management at Pebble Brook, overseeing hotels in the West Coast. She is a battle-hardened vet of real estate investment funds, acquisitions, asset management, among other tours of duty, and currently serves on the Board of Independent Lodging Congress. How does she do all this, you may ask? Because she knows how to organize, organize people, organize properties, and organize resources to make unforgettable experiences for us all. That is why I am very happy to welcome Jennifer to No Show. Thank you for being here.

Jennifer Barnwell:

That may have been the best introduction of my career. You are spot on. Great to hear that.

Jeff Borman:

We're probably 100 episodes in or getting close, Matt. And I have yet to have even so much as this is Jeff Borman. So welcome to the show.

Matt Brown:

When we do our final one, Jeff, years from now, I'm going to give you the whole episode will be your intro.

Jeff Borman:

Failures included. Jennifer, welcome. Curator is impressive, especially when we look when for me, uh, as I look around the industry at what keeps becoming more and more of what feels like a two-horse race, it's Hilton and Mary. And I don't necessarily believe that, but I think a lot of consumers and certainly the 500 million loyalty members of those two programs think that way, or Marriott and Hilton want them to think that way. When it comes to loyalty, has the value proposition of the collection brand changed as those huge industry titans are also getting into their own soft brand, curios and autographs and LXR?

Jennifer Barnwell:

You know, it's a great question. My point of view is, you know, there's room for everyone. You know, choice is a great thing to have, right? But I'm in the industry now for, you know, a very long time. And I don't even know what each of these brands are, you know, so the the the big companies have, you know, 30 or 40 brands each, you know, whatever the count is at any given point in time. And I can't even keep up with it. There's an obvious strategy there. Big brand companies need growth. They saw tremendous opportunity in the lifestyle and if you want to say, you know, independent or boutique space, because um, there was definitely the demand, you know, and the thirst and the interest in that segment of our market. So from a curators' perspective, I mean, that's not um our business plan. I I'm not gonna sit here and say we're competing with the big brands because we're not. It's like impossible, you know, at our size to, but I do feel very strongly about there being a segment of travelers that this is what they want, you know, especially as travelers skew younger in age. And it's in the space that I'm truly comfortable and I love. I mean, the independent and boutique segments of our market are so rewarding, so interesting. I just love everything about it from the team members I've come across in my career in the last, you know, 14 to 15 years and the designers I've worked with, you know, all the different types of vendors. It's just it's such an amazing space because you get to make every decision. It's not for everyone. It can be a very scary thing, but it to me it's like a very exciting thing. And I I I really love that segment of our industry.

Matt Brown:

To an owner of a hotel, what's the elevator pitch when they're thinking? Uh, do I do curator or do I go with one of these programs that has a quarter of a million members and they're gonna fill my hotel up to market level occupancy in four weeks? What's the pitch there to the person that's making that decision to fly with which flag, not just the consumer on where to stay for a night?

Jennifer Barnwell:

You know, you got to get in front of the right owner to have the pitch. I mean, there's, you know, many different kinds of owners, you know, in our space. And, you know, the brands don't really own anything. It's really, you know, REITs and private equity, you know, and some investment groups and some individual ownership groups, small groups, a lot of people who are just all in unbranded. You could view it as maybe an easier route. Maybe your fundraising and your um debt is gonna be easier to get if you have kind of the brand on your building that's perceived to be better and maybe less risky. I mean, it's a huge decision. And, you know, unfortunately, we've had a few properties over this time leave the collection because they have decided to go brand. But the brands make it very interesting because they have a lot of key money to offer up to owners, but there's a big trade-off because you're locked in for many years under that contract. You may see some cost savings in a number of things. But if you really dig in and look at all the fees, you have to pay the brands, just their normal fees, uh all the costs associated with loyalty, everything they charge you for, you know, up and down the PL. You have to do all that analysis for yourself to see if it really does make sense. And, you know, and the last bit of it is well, what market are you in? Are there a hundred other branded hotels already? So maybe you need to be part of the brand because it's a branded region or a branded city or a branded submarket, or can you actually be successful as an independent and you know, garner that demand and that and that top line revenue? So our elevator pitch is if you're planning to stay independent or boutique, come into Curator because it's completely no risk. And my objective is to create value for you. And the way I do that is my proprietary deals with all my vendors, plus the opportunity to bring in some incremental revenue to your top line.

Matt Brown:

How do you evaluate properties that you want to join Curator? Is there like a special sauce? Do you have like a do you have a murder board up somewhere, like a like a like a like a whiteboard up of like, oh, we'd really like to do it.

Jennifer Barnwell:

Bull eyes everywhere on the map.

Matt Brown:

Totally, totally. You've got strings running across the country, making connections. I'm sure you don't have anything like that, but maybe you do. How do you what's the what's the special sauce?

Jennifer Barnwell:

I mean, I start out by saying our approach is inclusive. I mean, we truly want to benefit any independent boutique hotel we possibly can. The analytical part of our prospecting is we're not just out there just trying to sign up members, just to sign up members and like inflate our numbers. We need to be able to perform. And at the end of the day, curator is we call it an ROI endeavor because at some point there are going to be some membership fees due, but we have to deliver a multiple of those membership fees to make sure members stay in, which means cost savings and revenue production. So the way we assess if we think a prospect is going to be a good member is we have multiple phone calls. We kind of go through a number of vendors that they currently work with to make sure there's some overlap there and just have kind of frank conversations on what are you looking for, what's important to you so that we can actually have that positive impact on them. So it's more important for us to find properties and um enroll properties that we know that we can deliver for. So that's really our objective. But we don't say, okay, only this type of independent is a good fit for curator, because we kind of run the gamut with property size and location, at least within all the US today, and kind of amenity, amenities, no amenities, food and beverage, meeting space. It's kind of a very wide range now where we can deliver value.

Matt Brown:

There's a level of centralization that happens, I think, whenever an independent property comes under anybody's flag. And we were curious what internal mechanisms there were in place at Curator from the very beginning at the corporate level to kind of keep the indie vibe in place in all the locations. I know it's something that everybody probably said they wanted. It's like, okay, we have to stick to it. But we all know how Mission Creep works here. And I wonder if if there are safeguards in there with the leadership team and with the owner and kind of keeping homogenization at a at bay. Is that have you ever had any kind of conversations around that?

Jennifer Barnwell:

Yeah, I think it all goes back to our approach. So our job is to tell their story accurately. We don't view it as there's really any centralization associated with becoming a member of Curator if you're an independent. We're completely flexible on purpose. Again, we're here primarily and singularly just to benefit our members however they wish, whether that's enrolling in our programs, you know, interfacing with our vendors, using our various distribution channels, using our various marketing initiatives, one of those, all of those. But we do have, you know, SOPs and kind of systems in place. We run our business through a CRM, which all of our members get access to so they can look up things on their own and access things on their own if they wish. We have regular monthly, quarterly, yearly reporting that we send out to them. Uh, we send weekly email updates to our membership. So it's high touch, but not like they, you know, they're not handcuffed to us.

Jeff Borman:

So right now, the the properties under the curator banner have a very distinct identity on their own. Uh talk to us about the individuality and the hierarchy of that with curator, with the the flag that's flown versus maybe the name that's been on the building. That's especially probably true in the historic hotels. How does that hierarchy work?

Jennifer Barnwell:

We definitely have spent time and effort and resources so that there is some awareness of curator in the market, because that's important. If you are a traveler who's interested in independent boutique hotels, you can go to curator, you know, and see 90 of them at once and kind of play around and look. And we see that with the volume of visitors that come to our site and how long they stay on our site, multiple minutes, and how many property pages they look at. So the distinctiveness of the properties, the variety of properties, that's the point to borrow one of your words earlier. Um, it's not homogenous. We're not out there pushing commodities onto anyone. Um, we want to celebrate how we have, you know, 90 different brands under Curator. It's a collection of brands, if you, you know, if you want to call it that. So we want people to know about Curator and what curator is. And we spend, you know, we invest in digital marketing because we want to drag people to our site to then learn about all the properties that are part of us. And we're sending out press releases whenever we get new members because we want to like keep the conversation going, that curator isn't just static. It keeps adding properties, interesting things, it keeps adding experiences that are separately bookable, associated with each of our members. So that there's always a reason for visitors to come back and check us out. Because otherwise you just get lost. I mean, if you're going to, you know, OTAs or other travel sites, you're just kind of lost in pages and pages and pages of stuff. So we've tried to do something different with the layer of our website. And because we're specifically all about independence and boutiques, there's a draw there that people are interested in learning more about.

Jeff Borman:

What is the geographic split of curator hotels? America, Europe, Asia.

Jennifer Barnwell:

So right now we are only in the US. And kind of the way we look at the data, we're about 50-50 resort versus like downtown urban hotel, which is kind of interesting to have 50-50. We're a little maybe just a little bit concentrated on the coast. I was looking, you know, just reminding myself about our newest members, and we've kind of had a spree in California recently. Um, so quite a few properties up and down the California coast, and a number of properties kind of in the middle and up and down the east coast too, and in Florida. Um, but today everything's in the US.

Jeff Borman:

It seems like the European market would almost be even more receptive to the curator market, where uh you know the Relay and chateaus of the world uh actually have a real place at the table, and people go, Oh no, I love that. I go to Relay first and from there decide where I actually want to go.

Jennifer Barnwell:

Right. Yeah, we've we've had some conversations with properties, Mexico, Caribbean, a little bit in um Western Europe, um, just not that much. Part of it, you know, can just go back to our resources. You know, we have um a certain amount of resources dedicated to prospecting, and there's just way more independent boutique hotels right here in the US than maybe I even thought five years ago. So we've just mainly for our own kind of resource deployment been focused on the US.

Matt Brown:

By law, you can't have any session at a hotel conference not have the words AI, artificial intelligence in the title over the last year. That's a little known fact. And you've spoken a lot about this, especially in regards to voice systems to handle front desk phone calls and freeing up staff. What ways do you see AI helping the company over the next few years? And maybe even ways that are a little bit unexpected.

Jennifer Barnwell:

You know, our approach has been initially here educate ourselves as much as we can about a lot of different things that are, you know, tied to AI or have AI embedded in them. And that led us to, you know, the practical things, which are, you know, first the AI voice agents, which we have in a handful of hotels already, been testing for months now. The idea is to take the load off the front desk because I mean, I didn't really think about it. I I've turned into more of a texter. I don't know about you guys when I go to a hotel. If they can text me, I just like I love that so much. Like everything I need, it's like responsive. It happens. I don't have to talk to anybody. But you might be surprised that the front desk still gets thousands of phone calls from a human like every month, and it's you know, very distracting and difficult for the front desk to handle. So AI agents have been a very good solution, a satisfactory solution for us. Not everything is totally perfect, you know, um, more development to be made there, but it's helped take the pressure off the front desk, which helps them be less stressed, you know, and anxious, maybe a little happier in their jobs, maybe less turnover. Um, they'll be able to help the actual guests in front of them standing in line or at the front desk rather than putting everybody on hold. So we've done a bunch of that um pretty successfully, and we'll continue to deploy more of that. The robots, um, you know, mainly on the evacuing side of it. We've gone with a few different companies, deployed them. Um, it's kind of a no-brainer because they can do this type of work overnight, um, not only in your lobby, but in your big event space in your corridors, like in the middle of the night. So you end up with actually a much cleaner hotel than you used to have, which has been um a really good learning. But also just kind of looking at other ways in AI. We've we've been spending a good amount of our time trying to educate ourselves, um, you know, with experts in the field, with vendors and consultants related to uh, I guess you would say marketing or search. Like, you know, they keep saying it's gonna be a hockey stick. How's everyone gonna use AI to search from now on? Like much, much more, they say, in the back half of this year than ever before. And how are you gonna show up? You don't want to get left behind. So there's a lot that we're looking into in that space in terms of um making your own website better so that you show up, you know, your posts on LinkedIn or your posts on Instagram or responding to guest reviews online or messaging to your guests. You know, it can ingest so much data that will help you um anticipate your guest needs, like sending the right message, the correct messages out to them and anticipating what they're gonna want based on what they had before. And also just date, just straight up data, like all of your booking data, all of your stay data. AI should certainly be able to help you identify trends much quicker and also help you forecast better.

Matt Brown:

Jeff and I talk about this all the time too, the how hotels in particular have to thread the needle with AI. People still want connection of some kind, and they still want some kind of personalization. It doesn't have to be with everything, doesn't have to be if you need more towels to the room. There are plenty of consumer-facing things that AI can do that I think people will welcome. But what what is this, what is this incredibly old business model, thousands of years old business model that is dependent on you kind of having connection with the place and other people who are serving you, helping, and how AI will kind of fit into that. I think that probably goes double for the curator properties, right? Because the very pull and draw of these places is how distinctive and individual they are. So I'll be curious to see how everybody shakes out them.

Jennifer Barnwell:

Yeah, I mean, where we kind of live in the hospitality industry with our properties, it's just you can't even imagine humans, you know, certainly never going away.

Matt Brown:

And sure. Like right?

Jennifer Barnwell:

But but again, but again, part of it is like choice, right? It's not maybe it's not maybe there's gonna be a hotel of the future that's like all robots and kiosks, and some people love it, and other people, you still want this amazing property with all these, you know, design features and special touches and the amazing uniforms and the music that's playing, like it all makes sense, and the pool and the uh, you know, the spa and the you know, you can go zip lining and they orchestrate it all, but they use AI to do it extremely efficiently. I mean, that's what my hope is with some of the things now, even the AI agents I was talking about. If you take some load off of your team members through AI platforms, then I would hope they can spend a lot more time and focus on the guests that are in front of them or asking for things. It's not about just like getting rid of half the staff. That's not the point. The point is to make the operation more efficient so you can deliver an even better guest experience than you've been able to most recently.

Jeff Borman:

A humanless hospitality experience isn't one that I look forward to. But yeah, but I think there is one. Uh I think there's one in Las Vegas. Um there they're actually giving this thing a shot. Where really? Yeah, there is supposedly there's no interaction with staff. Uh I don't know that Airbnb would like to be associated, but they say it's Airbnb like.

Matt Brown:

I think there's an old Bob Odenkirkline when he's playing an agent in something, he's like, ah, he's a Hollywood agent. It's like, God, this business would be great if it weren't for the clients.

Jeff Borman:

The one in Vegas I'm talking about is named brilliantly. It's autonomous. Now O-T-O-N, but like super want to run into another human perfectly branded.

Jennifer Barnwell:

Well, I will tell you, like, I'll be really quick, quick anecdote. I I have very recently gone to get a robot massage, and it has made for some really good conversations with my family members. I just told my all my neighbors about it because people, it seems to be very polarizing. But when I'm like lay out the whole experience, you know, from start to finish, in my opinion about it, you know, people get more open-minded about it. But right off the bat, they're like, oh my God, I would never. And I was like, no, I was excited to try. And I'm actually, it was a really great experience from my perspective. And now they're like opening up to it.

Matt Brown:

Okay, let's talk about this for just a second. So did the robot talk to you?

Jennifer Barnwell:

No, this application, it's a full massage table, and it's just like arms. Okay. So you lay face down, and there's a like a big iPad where like all the communication is through that. I mean, there's multiple stop buttons. God forbid anything would happen, but it already has my information loaded. You pick music or no music, and you pick the areas and the pressure and all this stuff. And it's just like two really big arms that basically go from your neck like down to your ankles.

Jeff Borman:

I why limit it to two arms?

Jennifer Barnwell:

I will send you the link.

Jeff Borman:

Did they give you a safe?

Jennifer Barnwell:

That may be like generation two or three or four, like an octopus, like eight arms.

Matt Brown:

Sure. Okay. I'm the minute we stop this recording, I'm getting online to see this.

Jennifer Barnwell:

I'll send you the link.

Matt Brown:

Be careful what you search.

Jennifer Barnwell:

This is legit, and I'm going back.

Jeff Borman:

Oh my God. Yeah, there's um there are a few different applications out there these days that allow you to order room service uh through your phone, right? You interact with the TV instead of calling in-room dining. And one of the things that we've noticed, and you made me think of this with your uh with the massage robotic massage where you don't have to interact with a human. One of the more uh common feelings in the massage is that the person doesn't want to tell the therapist how to do their job, right? Like, I really need that right shoulder worked on more, but you don't want to go, oh, stay there, more of that. Like you it's just kind of you don't do that culturally. But with a robot, I imagine you'd have no problem saying, you know, that's the spot right there, keep on it. Uh what we've seen with some of these different applications for in-room dining is that the indulgence of the guest increases. So instead of the inhibition of telling an interim dining agent, you've already said how many people will be dining? One. One glasses of wine would you like? Four. Four desserts. And when you do it through an app, those four get ordered.

Jennifer Barnwell:

You know, the human element is so interesting, right? Because I think about that, you know, related to the robot massage, I was like, I felt completely safe and totally in control. That's why I loved it. I had another person say to me, you know, I'm not really very proud of my body anymore. So I haven't been getting massages because I'm so self-conscious. This is perfect for me. And then with the room service order, I'm always like, oh, I'm that person that indulges when I travel, and I'm like, okay, I'm having a burger and fries, I'm gonna get a dessert. What does this person think of me?

Matt Brown:

Totally. Those problems you won't have to worry about anymore. It's time for the mystery question. I'm gonna put you on the spot on this one, but it's good. It's it'll be fun. What is one of your favorite non-curator property in the world? Who does it right?

Jennifer Barnwell:

Who does it? Well, so the quandary is uh an indulgent quandary is picking which hotel in Paris because um before, well, I guess after we had our first child, we still went back. But my husband and I have been to Paris like four times. It's incredible.

Matt Brown:

Great.

Jennifer Barnwell:

Every time we stayed in a different property, in a different neighborhood. I'll tell you, we walked into the George Sank and really wanted to stay there and couldn't afford it. So I'll say aspirationally, I mean, if there's any way, like the experience with the George Sank must be amazing. But we stayed, actually, we stayed at the Intercontinental by the Opera House, and it's really old school. Um, I'll tell you, I generally kind of gravitate more to like modern sensibilities and modern properties, you know, on this, you know, boutique kind of edgy theme. But it just felt right in Paris, and you know, in that neighborhood as well, and going to kind of the old school sidewalk cafes was something uh we're dying to go back and do again, but we uh haven't been for quite a while.

Matt Brown:

Excellent. So advice to the listeners visit Paris.

Jennifer Barnwell:

Oh my god, please visit Paris. You won't regret it.

Matt Brown:

Thank you so much for being a guest.

Jennifer Barnwell:

Oh my gosh, time's up already. Thank you guys so much. This was so fun.